Take That Statue Down!

Confederate soldier statue in front of the historic Leesburg Court House

Take that confederate soldier statue down that stands in front of the historic Leesburg Court House!

It’s a symbol of disunion and slavery.  If it’s to stand anywhere, let it be in a museum but not at the front of a court of law on public grounds.

Our forebears could have placed a less offensive symbol in front of the court house in 1908.  But they didn’t.  They intended to make a statement – an unacceptable statement – and it’s high time we rejected that offensive statement.

Years ago, in the 1980s, there were stocks and whipping posts in front of this same court house.

I made reference at a sentencing in the court house once, how it was “unfortunate” that such dehumanizing and tortuous methods of punishment stood directly in front of a court house when we were considering punishment in a criminal case.

According to the American Anti-Slavery Society in 1839, a slave “was placed in a sitting position, with his hands made fast above his head, and feet in the stocks, so that he could not move any part of the body.”  This took less effort than whipping.  So, it became preferred as a punishment because, well, it took less physical effort.

No doubt others thought that these instruments of torture should be removed – and they were.

Now we should finish the job – and remove the statue as well.

The Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution abolished “slavery” and “involuntary servitude” and granted Congress the power to enact “appropriate legislation.” By the 1866 Civil Rights Act, black citizens enjoyed “the full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings for security of person and property as is enjoyed by white citizens.”

Under the Amendment and the 1866 Act, what were called “badges of slavery” were outlawed.

Plainly, stocks and a whipping post were “badges of slavery.”  This statue is as well.

Since 1908, this confederate soldier has stood directly in front of the old courthouse, elevated on a pedestal, with his rifle pointed straight at you as you approach the old courthouse.

A Confederate soldier plainly represents what he fought for, for disunion, so that any state could ignore the constitution and break its constitutional compact with every other state, violate the law of the land, in order to preserve and spread slavery into the territories, to continue the stigma, the badges of slavery, in perpetuity.

President Andrew Jackson reprimanded Vice President John C. Calhoun at a party in 1830, saying, “Our Union must be preserved.”

Calhoun feared that, if slavery were abolished, whites would be forced into that working class, at low pay.  Calhoun asserted the right of states to nullify what they didn’t want.

In 1858, Abraham Lincoln said in Springfield, Illinois that, “a house divided against itself cannot stand.”  He said those who favored slavery were of the view, “if any one man, choose to enslave another, no third man shall be allowed to object.”  Lincoln said one object of the Scott decision was to deny citizenship to slaves so they had no rights or privileges.

All who approach this statue may rightly recall the unequal treatment before the law suffered by persons of color and how it persists to this day long after the civil war.

Many know about the kidnapping and murder in 1955 of the black youth, Emmett Till, 14, how the trial concluded with acquittals, followed by the admissions of the acquitted defendants, bragging to a magazine, how they had really done the dirty deed.

Medgar Evers, an NAACP field secretary, was killed in 1963 because he sought to overturn segregation in the South.  When Byron De La Beckwith, of the White Citizens Counsel, was tried, two all-white juries deadlocked.  In 1994, 30 years later, De La Beckwith was tried and convicted.

The NAACP came into existence about the time our Confederate Soldier was installed; the Klu Klux Klan returned re-vitalized about the same time.

Virginia was infamously known for its massive resistance against segregation.  In Loudoun, we had segregated schools, movie theaters, the pool; in fact, when directed to open the pool to black and white alike, the pool was filled with concrete.

It’s therefore no metaphorical coincidence that we have this imposing bronze soldier, the symbol of the southern nullification movement that set out to disunite our nation, confronting every citizen who approaches our courts of law.

It is long past the time when we can pretend that a confederate soldier statue is not itself a badge of slavery.

It’s long past the time when we should take it down.

80 thoughts on “Take That Statue Down!

  1. Gail Itschner

    That statue was erected to honor ALL the Confederates of Loudoun County, including black Confederates. It’s about heritage, not hate.
    Is there some reason, sir, that you can’t propose a second statue dedicated to honor the Loudoun Rangers, the one Union regiment out of Waterford? Loudoun County soldiers fought brother against brother, family against family, and neighbor against neighbor. It is not for us, to decide at the Sesquicentennial, that one statue is so distasteful. The War Between the States was absolutely distasteful. It was pure horror! Horror for both sides. I have family who fought on both sides, and I honor my Confederate ancestors in the same light that I honor my Quaker/Union ancestors who were active participants in the Underground Rail Road. The War had little to nothing to do with slavery for my particular family. They weren’t slave owners in 1862.
    The soldiers who fought each other returned to places like Gettysburg to reminisce and shake hands as old men. John Singleton Mosby became the campaign manager for Ulysses S. Grant. General Joseph E. Johnston was a pallbearer at General Sherman’s funeral. These men made their peace with each other. That statue is part of our country’s healing process. It is a reminder. We MUST remember.
    I feel like you are taking a page out of the Taliban’s book by trying to erase the cultural history of the area. They dismantle statues too.

  2. Robert Eakin

    I’m tired of the naacp trying to run everything in this country! Let it stand by all means, it is history. Why not take down all statues of Martin Luther King, Jr. also if they want to rewrite history.

  3. Marjorie McKinstry-Miller

    Please do not attempt to dismiss, rewrite or erase OUR history for your political or business motives. Your diatribe is inaccurate, distasteful, and fuels more hate than the statute standing in honor of the men and women who of Loudoun County who died fighting for the Confederate side during the American Civil War.

  4. Gary Dombrowski

    I believe in accepting ALL of this nation’s history BOTH good and bad. I’m still amazed that images, statues, and other monuments to Washington and Jefferson still stand. After all they did own slaves, didn’t they? It’s interesting how these folks want to “cherry pick” which symbols or individuals offend them while others that should be looked at the same way are left alone.

  5. G.winterer

    Your argument is voided by the Jackson quote. Yes, Jackson wished to preserve the Union, by ridding it of all Native Americans.

  6. Julie Rogers

    You sir may find the statue offensive, but I find the statue a remembrance of history and lessons to be learned. My Confederate Ancestor volunteered to fight and he was 45 years old. He was a poor farmer just getting by and didn’t own a slave one. I am proud of this Ancestor as well as his father that fought in the War of 1812 (who didn’t own slaves) and his grandfather (who didn’t own slaves) who fought during the Revolutionary War. Monuments are placed as a remembrance of events that have happened – good or bad.
    While you call this statue “a symbol of disunion and slavery”, the fact is, the South did not rebel against the Union. The South rebelled against Lincoln’s perverse and self-deluded concept of the Union. The War Between the States had nothing to do with slavery – it was all political. But no matter how hard one may try, history can’t be erased. It’s there to learn from.
    I am proud of my southern heritage and I enjoy Loudoun County’s richness of all the history it contains. Your attack on one statue is an attack on all monuments erected as a remembrance to all those who fought and died to protect our country. If you find that statue offensive, maybe you should consider taking your practice to another county that doesn’t have monuments that gives you a negative impression of the area in which you live and work.

  7. Karen Simpson

    Isn’t it a wonder to see that there is such an enlightened, compassionate person as Mr John Flannery living and breathing among us. All these years and all these tens of thousands of people, blind to such insult and iniquity. Thank God Mr Flannery is here to explain our own history to us and remind us of our high moral duty. In fact, Mr Flannery has provided us with all the details about himself we should ever care to know. In his self aggrandizing cowardice, attacking our ancestors long dead and gone, he shows he is not fit to lick the boots of the honorable and courageous soldier depicted in that statue.

  8. Dixie Diva

    I find the NAACP offensive, as do many former members of it. Therefore, I would like all traces of it removed, as well as all it’s symbols and history. I will not rest until this is accomplished. What’s that? You say I can’t do that because this is a free country…..well, then tell that to the NAACP who made the exact same statement about all things Confederate.

  9. John Grigsby

    I find transplants from up North that lack manners and respect to be offensive. You needs a lesson on civility and I can give it. Leave Virginia history alone or face righteous anger.

  10. Ed Spence

    Flannery’s brand of pseudo-intellectual posturing was demolished during a similarly misguided episode in which a coterie of distinguished Lefty professors demanded that newly inaugurated President Obama not place a wreath at the Confederate memorial in Arlington cemetery. The entire piece is here, written by filmmaker Ron Maxwell, director of the movie Gettysburg and someone who knows how to think and how to write. Mr Flannery, take notes.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ronald-maxwell/on-the-occasion-of-presid_b_212674.html

  11. Glenn Green

    Watch out Loudon = this guy is a typical scallywag Yankee Lawyer = just like scumbag Lincoln. He is obviously planning on running for public office and he is attacking our American heritage to court the local black vote. What a sorry inbred deformed Yankee Scumbag go back to where you came from.

  12. jeff

    Leave the statue alone. It is a very public reminder of what happened here so that we do not have to repeat it…like we have to do with so much of our history because of ignorance and intolerance. Take it to a museum, you say…well..have you seen the Smithsonian Museum of American History lately? It lookks like a collection of items for the game trivial pursuit. I wouldn’t trust some academic egghead to interpret this statue in a museum. A symbol of disunion and slavery? It is also a sympbol of defiance to oppresive government. We need more sympbols of defiance to oppresive governments these days, not less. Have you been reading about the IRS, maybe? Or, government spying on The Associated Press? How about an Administration reluctant to rule out using combat drones on U.S. soil on U.S. citizens? Kind of itneresting that the staute’s stance reminds me of the Minute Man statute in Boston.

  13. Brett Moffatt

    You are wrong on several accounts. You have selectively edited quotes to try to support your erroneous assumptions.
    President Jackson gave a toast, “Our union it must be preserved.” Calhoun answered correctly, “To the union, next to our liberties most dear.” It was not slavery, which was supported even by Lincoln,as late as 1865, but tariffs which was the issue. Calhoun had the correct Constitutional position.
    Lincoln was against rights for blacks. He believed whites were superior, and that blacks should be sent from our country.
    You talk of disunion, but it was secession. The union was not imperiled, as there was no attempt by the CSA to take over the USA.
    You list many horrible actions and events which happened in the South, but do not mention desegregation which lasted longer in the North. You did not mention the ‘Negro wrangler’ position in Massachusetts, who was tasked with making sure no blacks were allowed to reside in the state.
    You need to learn some history, instead of propaganda. I suggest you check out Libertyclassroom.com. You should be able to afford their courses, and could benefit from them.

  14. Greg Freivogel

    ….. I’d be in fear for my family’s safety if we were to visit this historical monument in its original location, Would feel uncomfortable in fear these radical groups might bring harm while visiting! Sorry sad state we’re in when a family cant visit a historical site without the fear of possibly be targeted with harm by these radical groups that think they can dictate what they feel is Politically Correct and should be band form open public view only to be seen in a strict controlled environment they deem acceptable to their views and ideas… Theirs only at any cost! No I don’t think my family will visit anytime soon! Sorry not worth my family’s safety!.

  15. Epluribusunum

    I see that the “Sons of Confederate Veterans” or whatever activist group this is has called out their troops from across the Old Confederacy. They must be feeling insecure again. We saw the same nonsense unfold in Leesburg when some group wanted to display a Confederate flag a few years ago. The vast majority of comments came from outside Loudoun, as I’m confident these do.

    A lot of things can be characterized as “history.” The Holocaust is “history,” but that doesn’t mean it’s appropriate to display swastikas at public sites where the perpetrators happened to be engaged in their crimes against humanity. History belongs in a museum, and is in fact why we have a Holocaust museum – so people can learn from the mistakes of the past.

    In this case, contrary to the protestations of the complainants above, the American Civil War was fought by the Confederate side to maintain slavery, end of argument. The one and only difference between the US Constitution and the Confederate Constitution is that the latter contained a so-called “right” to own other human beings. There is no way of celebrating this that is not a disgrace. Ignorance of that fact does not change it. Put the statue in a museum where such things belong.

  16. Glenn Taylor

    I don’t know the person who wants to take the statue down, but you are barking up the wrong tree! That statue will continue to stand and proud.

  17. Barbara Munsey

    EPU: “The vast majority of comments came from outside Loudoun…”

    Thank you for the chuckle–I’ll remember that next Christmas when Fauquier atheists come up to do displays on the courthouse lawn as Christians from Middleburg, or the next time the word goes out over BTB or J.M.G. about the latest Delgaudio outrage.
    It seems then that comments even from other countries are A-OK! lol

    I concur with a previous poster in wondering what office Mr. Flannery will be running for

  18. Raleigh Boaze

    Concerning the Confederate Statue:
    Hey Flannery, don’t sweat the small stuff. Instead of spending your time trying to get one confederate statue removed from the courthouse grounds, there are bigger fish to fry.
    When the Union Soldiers invaded the South, they burned the mills, barns, factories, homes, towns, and cities, plus setting the torch to crops so that Southerners, soldiers, citizens, and slaves, had very little food for themselves and their livestock.
    Your efforts would be better spent ridding the Southland of all the Yankee statues and monuments littering the land, and your business would get a lot of free advertising.

  19. Epluribusunum

    There is no “Southland.” This is the United States of America. That war is over, except in the imaginations of a few people who can’t seem to let it go. I’m sorry if your feelings are hurt, but I’m much more concerned about the people who have reason to feel they can’t get a fair hearing in court because a culture that kept their ancestors as property is still being celebrated as “history” on the courthouse grounds.

  20. Fess Parker

    I’d be more scared walking into the courthouse if John Flannery were my lawyer than from walking past a statue.

  21. John Grigsby

    Take the offense! You can plainly see that the carpetbagger/scalawag is on the defensive…and we have yet begun to fight. I suspect he will move up reinforcements soon. Maybe he’ll trace IP addresses and have his leftist friends tap our lines and create a “special” IRS file on us. Just beware….socialistic anti Americans like Flannery are very capable of such shenanigans and buffoonery when they are thrown off agenda by righteous folk protecting their Constitutional rights. They do not like historical accuracy…they worship Baal (political correctness).

  22. John Flannery

    As best I can tell, most of you support slavery and disunion and that’s the message you believe should be published on the court house grounds. All the rest is name-calling. Grigsby who once got so upset about what was said about him practices what he’s found so offensive when it’s done to him. For example, Grigsby has accused me of various crimes that are libelous and untrue. As for Fess Parker, Why are you hiding – or do you think you’re Davey Crocket. Raleigh, have you forgotten what the confederate soldiers did to those loudoun residents who supported the stars and stripes and opposed slavery and secession? Hillsboro, the differences in the constitutions is significant as slavery was the cause. Brett, the purpose of Calhoun’s statement was to say union was not uppermost, the liberty to enslave was. Thus, Calhoun’s preference for nullification over union, the philosophical break that presaged the war. Jeff, we don’t celebrate a nation’s failures in our public squares, at least should not in front of a court house. At least Dixie says what seems to motivate many of you, a desire to eliminate the NAACP that successfully ende lawful segregation in the south, although segregation was in full flight in 1908 when this statue was placed in front of the court house. Though Brown v. Board of Education was decided in 1954 outlawing segregation, Loudoun didn’t integrate the Douglass school until 1968. Glenn, aside from your name calling, I’m doing this because it’s right. If you knew anything about politics, you’d appreciate that stating any position with clarity is not how you run for office, not in Loudoun nor anywhere else for that matter. Oh, and John Grigsby, what is the lesson you’re going to give me? Are you making a threat on top of your libelous insinuations? Just asking. Your comments here are not very instructive in civility. Karen, folk have been saying for years that statue doesn’t belong in front of the courthouse. In a museum or a confederate grave yard but not in front f the court house.

  23. Hillsboro

    > Hillsboro, the differences in the constitutions is significant as slavery was the cause.

    Unfortunately that isn’t what Epluribus claimed. Nice attempt at diversion, though!

  24. John Flannery

    Hey, John, did I get it wrong, that you were the victim of libel. Are you the same John Grigsby the court thought libelled another – by the name of Kelly?. See – http://va-loudouncounty.civicplus.com/documents/15/3362/3364/CL31482%20%20%20Kelly%20v%20Grigsby%20March%208%202005.DOC if that is you, what happened after the Judge’s opinion? What was the final outcome? Were you represented by the same guy running for Governor now, AG Cooch? Does the Cooch agree with you about this statue in front if the court house? If so, invite him to debate me on this issue. Anywhere. Any time. Anyhow, John, why don’t you rein in your “enthusiasm” and try to stick to the facts. I’m fine with robust argument and passion, i indulge passionate argument myself, but don’t find it much civil when you make up stuff and call names. There’s a difference between being a character and having any. Don’t you agree?

  25. John Flannery

    I overlooked how Barbara Munsey was full of wonder at my political plans. Can you just imagine the dazed look on her face? She just can’t stand it when other people have something to say and she’s left out. So she shoots blanks. She proposes something that nobody with any political sense thinks is remotely possible. It is more likely you all will levitate by the end of this sentence than I shall ever run for office. I like what I’m doing. How many of you would spend a split second thinking of running for office and having to stand for things you don’t believe to get a job you don’t want that mostly accomplishes little and pays less than a weekend gig as a starbuck’s barista. I rest my case. So why did Barbara say what she did? Because she had nothing to add. Also, she can’t stand the thought of being politically irrelevant. Many of you made actual arguments – amidst a fair amount of name calling – but real arguments. Barbara’s harangues are akin to an army of pompous phrases wandering across a vast landscape in search of an idea. Don’t you think. Brace yourself for the sniper shooting more blanks. She can’t help herself.

  26. Hillsboro

    > It is more likely you all will levitate by the end of this sentence than I shall ever run for office.

    I was truly hoping for a reprise of the 2007 election where you ran for Commonwealth’s Attorney and got less than 24% of the vote. I guess you learned a lesson from that humiliating defeat!

  27. John Flannery

    Actually, Hillsboro, whatever your real name is, you don’t understand that much about politics or why someone runs for office. I announced a write-in campaign two weeks before the election because the Commonwealth Attorney had indicted the Republican primary opponent who was challenging his preferred candidate and then dismissed the indictment after his candidate won that primary. I charged that was a shoddy way to handle the elected office he held. I was outraged that no judge, no elected official, no newspaper, took the commonwealth attorney to task. So I did. The first week my law firm thought it was merely a protest – which it was. The second week my firm was concerned that I might win. If you check with the Board of Elections, you will find that a write in rarely gets more than 5% of the vote. I received almost 5 times that ordinary threshold. Having said that, you are right. I lost that election. But you don’t understand much about life if you think a defeat is humiliating because you fought a good fight for a good objective – once again to improve what we call “justice” in Loudoun County. Perhaps you’ve never lost anything in your life, no matter what your real name is. Then perhaps you’ve never dared to do anything that really mattered except to snipe and gripe about what others do. it is kind of you to weakly give support to Barbara Munsey – since this was originally her argument – the speculation I might run for office. What’s a matter, Barbara, you can’t speak for yourself? Or are you Barbara? Ms. Hillsboro? Come out! Come out wherever you are! Anyhow, you guys have got to get your talking points straight. Some think I’m protesting lawlessness and slavery because I’m getting ready to run for office – like you think that’s wrong. Others, you (facetious) unknown person, wanted me to run so you could beat me. Hillsboro, you couldn’t beat an egg much less run a political campaign.

  28. Barbara Munsey

    John, As you had previously run for office, your rantings here made me wonder if you had plans to do so again. The rest of the comment was not addressed to your rantings on the statue, but to EPU’s sniffy hypocrisy in claiming irrelevance on the possible location of commenters that disagree with an issue he supports.

    As to harangues against name calling etc, nice job practicing what you claim to be preaching against in your diatribe against me. What exactly have you contributed here? More than blanks, yes, but still primarily noise sans substance.

    Perhaps the technique being displayed is how you ran up nearly $100K in legal bills before the county capped your services in that BOE trial? I don’t remember if you prevailed there or not?

    IOW, maybe you aren’t in the best position to throw stones either.

    Have a nice day.

  29. Barbara Munsey

    p.s.–check the IPs, Einstein. I’m me, Hillsboro is Hillsboro, and maybe you should eat some bran flakes or something.

  30. Hillsboro

    Wow, so much for civility!

    I’d suggest that if you don’t support the use of pseudonyms here, you might seek a new home, given that the site owners all post under pseudonyms.

  31. Hillsboro

    Your quest to whitewash Loudoun’s history reminds me of the sanitizing of Atlanta’s past, described by Tony Horowitz in Confederates in the Attic:

    During the run-up to the 1996 Olympics, this sanitizing became downright Orwellian. A suburb called Roswell, under pressure from corporate sponsors, deleted “antebellum” from the title of its annual historical festival (it also tried to bar Confederate reenactors from participating). Roswell’s Historic Preservation Commission also removed a marker pointing out slave quarters beside an antebellum home. ‘We’ll just put it right back after the Olympics are over,’ a local official said, ‘this is history’.

    >> Jeff, we don’t celebrate a nation’s failures in our public squares, at least should not in front of a court house.

    So the next project in your campaign to sanitize history will be to remove the memorials to service men and women who died in the wars we lost?

  32. John Flannery

    Barbara, I can quite understand why you would have an easy view toward how a public official conducts law enforcement business – as you may not know enough to appreciate misbehavior by a public official. So what you call “rantings,” I called unanswered charges of misconduct. More to the point, you ask what have I contributed to the ongoing discussion about disunion and slavery. I’d say I caught your interest and concern. Perhaps it’s because your wrong-headed view in support of disunion and slavery is at risk. otherwise, you appear to have a problem holding your attention on one subject. The Board of Supervisors paid me what they owed me on the BOE matter as of the date I submitted my bill but they they delayed paying me for months, ended up paying outside counsel to avoid paying me more than they owed me for defending the BOE, and, to the credit of ourside counsel, they advised the board that we were going to prevail, and thus they did what they should have done from the start. Our bill was never $100k. But what really must drive you crazy is that the BOE was right all the time, that Ms. Bradford’s claim was factually and legally unsupported, and that’s why it was denied by the District Court Judge. Since you can’t seem to put your hands on it, and apparently want to review the decision, you might read it (again) – http://valawyersweekly.com/wp-files/pdf/012-10-02.pdf

  33. John Flannery

    Hey Hillsboro, when talking about a whitewash, be wary of being reflexive for you are the white wash meister since a statue to slavery and to disunion, as if either are worthy of memorials, is a true white wash. Do you sport a confederate flag on your car as well? Wouldn’t surprise me. Got Al Jolson records too no doubt? Amos and Andy statues on your lawn? We don’t take down memorials to war dead who fought for the United States, rather than against it, win or lose. We don’t honor these soldiers because they won or lost, we honor them because they fought at risk of life and limb for a united nation under law.

  34. John Flannery

    hey, hillsboro, baby concerned about civility. then try to practice some, stop whining, and we won’t punch back so hard. we might even have a real discussion break out. if you try, i’ll respond in kind. also, only cowards hide behind a moniker while hurling political opinions from their sewing room.

  35. Barbara Munsey

    Thank you for answering my questions John–lol, by continued obfuscation, misdirection and straw rants.

    Unanswered charges of misconduct? No, your rantings about a piece of local history. To change that into a position on disunion and slavery, well, yes, the standard progressive argumentation tactic, which still does not make for an actual position taken, except perhaps in your preferred world which is only “reality based” in the same sense that even Norman Bates had a “reality” going on that was quite real to HIM.

    Yes, yes, your bill had only ascended to over $80K when the BoS finally put the breaks on, but that’s closer to 100 than it is to either 50 or zero, and this IS a progressive blog so I was just trying to follow the rules.

    Here, have a bone, I’ll speculate some more on your outsized intemperate personal attacks, in light of your accusation that Hillsboro is a sock of mine (Bronx Betty, you should know better, shouldn’t you?): are you one of the consortium of the intemperate innacurate at FakeLoudoun? The vitriol reads like it, and the personal hatred does too.

    Come on John, Democrats are supposed to be BETTER than that! At least, everyone is supposed to believe they are. Or else. Etc.

    They make organic bran flakes, I’m sure. Go for it. You may end up a happier man.

  36. Hillsboro

    Keep whining about cowards and their monikers on a so site graciously provided by Pariahdog, Epluribusunum, Doorbell Queen and Paradox13.

  37. Hillsboro

    To answer your silly and obfuscatory questions:

    Do you sport a confederate flag on your car as well? No, I do not.
    Got Al Jolson records too no doubt? No, I do not.
    Amos and Andy statues on your lawn? No, I do not.

    So back to the history argument, John:

    Is there no historic significance to a statue that has stood for over 100 years, that was paid for by the citizens of Loudoun, and which served as the model for the Virginia memorial at Gettysburg? Whitewash away my friend. A Disneyfied Leesburg for all!

    Way back in comment #1, Gail Itschner (surely another pseudonym of Barbara Munsey) suggested a very reasonable alternative. Of course you’ve ignored her. My suggestion would be that you contribute the seed money to get this project started. Perhaps the (just shy of) $100,000.00 paid to you by the citizens of Loudoun to fund your defense of the morally indefensible actions of J.Scott Littner? It might help your tarnished reputation here in Loudoun.

  38. Barbara Munsey

    John, just noticed something: “while hurling political opinions from their sewing room”? Seriously?

    Is Hillsboro a man or a woman? I don’t know. I don’t know if it matters in blog conversation either. As one of the moniker-clad here once opined, why be concerned about what is in people’s pants?

    You not only assume H is a woman, but a woman confined to…a sewing room.

    What a binder to place some lady parts in! Why, it’s almost as if you are WARRING on Hillsboro, and the kind of woman you assume her to be!

    IOW, another prog platitude busted by example, along with “tone”.

    What on earth is the matter with you lately?

  39. Barbara Munsey

    I find it interesting that he assumes you are a woman in order to demean you. So much for *EQUALITY*.

    p.s. to John–see comment number 11 from Glenn Greene, who first opined that you might be running for office on the thread.

    Which is why I said “a previous poster” when I mentioned it.

    because it wasn’t me who brought it up.

  40. Hillsboro

    Barbara, I think John Flannery may be trying to overcompensate for something.

    Anyhoo, I know my place. Back to the sewing room. I’ve gotta finish stitching all the new Klan hoods together. I found a snazzy new pattern on Pinterest.

  41. Barbara Munsey

    EPU, it wasn’t quite QB VII quality in the Grigsby trial, but the judgement rendered was a very small fraction of the 7+ figures demanded in the suit.

    Hillsboro, I’ve no clue. I’ve met John in person, shaken his hand, and found him to be quite pleasant at the time. I am at a loss to explain the (Irish lily white–seriously, there isn’t much more pale and I should kjnow because I’m Irish too) ranting angry patriarchal mysoginist….against the “party of angry old white men”.

    Well, in prog land I guess it makes sense.

  42. Elder Berry

    You’re right, EPU. My memory is the same as yours. The last go round of his foul mouth activity ended up in court and cost Grigsby some bucks, despite the moral support he received from every right wing crackpot in Virginia. Could it have been outside that courtroom that you shook Grigsby’s hand, Barbara Munsey. Before or after the verdict?

    Grigsby, you have a huge nerve or maybe I should say pure gall talking about lack of respect and being offensive. As I recall Judge Horne and a Loudoun County jury told you and your Mr. Cucinelli and his Patrick Henry College helper that you were flat out guilty of defamation. Which is punishable under Virginia law. The jury decided disrespectful and offensive ought to be your middle names.

    Barbara Munsey do you have any idea how few verdicts of defamation are given in courts in Virginia, much less verdicts of defamation when the speech is in a public government forum? Seems to me by losing and not appealing, Grigsby and Cucinelli knew they had lost unequivocally. That’s case law now. If the Kellys business records had been admitted, Grigsby might have been in a world of financial hurt over that verdict in addition to having his bull puckey repudiated.

    Big money or small money, the verdict accomplished what such verdicts are meant to do. Grigsby’s hate spewing disappeared for quite some time after that. His big fat nasty mouth was shut tight.

    Barbara Munsey I suppose Grigsby seems fine to you because I’ve also heard that prominent “conservatives” here in Loudoun think its fine to spit at people who are trying to vote if they disagree with you. It’s that kind of jingoistic view of patriotism that people objecting to the statue may be worried about. I don’t speak for them of course. I just wonder if there’s still a statue to Hitler’s SS in Berlin nowadays.

  43. Barbara Munsey

    um, elderberry, my handhsaking remarks referred to the author of this thread, John Flannery.

    The Kellys have their own issues, i.e. Halloween masks to give public comment in, throwing toys on the floor of the boardroom, sitting in public with a taped mouth, threatening to dump manure in the boardroom, and accusing elected officials of being the Taliban, along with props.

    They seem fortunate to be able to support their property and lifestyle on the proceeds of a small designer yarn shop in a small historic community (really. but I’m guessing the ag deferral helps too), so I do have to wonder what the admission of business records might have shown.

    At any rate, nice further example of angry ranting from a progressive, but sorry, you have assumed the wrong John for your diatribe.

  44. Epluribusunum

    Sorry, but John Grigsby actually posted here, and yes, he was found guilty of defamation and compelled to pay the judgment. Obfuscation and derailing won’t work for you here. Back to the topic at hand.

  45. Barbara Munsey

    nice try EPU, but no: See how my comment of 19:25 on 5/19 is in three parts? In writing land, that often stands for three seperate ideas, or paragraphs.

    The first part is addressed to you, which is why it has your name on it, and references your comment of 16:47 on the same date.

    Separated by some space is the second part, which is addressed to Hillsboro (which is why it uses Hillsboro’s name–see how that works?), and answers their comment of 18:20 on the same date, which specifically references John FLANNERY, to whom I was referring in my remarks, as I clarified to elderberry when they decided to continue John F’s, your and their own derailment of a thread about a statue into the Kelly v. Grigsby trial.

    But thank you for the projection of your own habitual obfuscation in getting everything back on track where it belongs in your preferred reality, with the progressives nanny-triumphant over the ever thick and dim.

  46. Elder Berry

    Given your comprehensive knowledge of the Kellys, Barbara Munsey, right down to their tax records, were you one of the contributors to Grigsby’s defamatory recitation or did you just coach him for his losing court performance? What part of running a small business offends you, it is hardly a life of leisure that gentry would choose. I thought you right wingers supported small business. Apparently you wouldn’t know one if you saw one. You must secretly be one of those socialist communists who resent success in business! I’ve been to the Kelly yarn store it has been around for at least 15 years and employs four or five people.

    The Kellys were not on trial. Grigsby was and Grigsby is spouting his trash here too, which is how he got to be subject of the discussion. Everyone but you including the jury clearly saw that nothing the Kellys did is in any way comparable to Grigsby’s defamation (slander in common language). Like the Weintraubs I was around at the time and saw the people who dumped the toys pick them up again. Does having duct tape on your mouth or wearing a mask equal slander, of course not. Not at all sure what you think you heard about manure, didn’t hear that at any board meeting I ever attended around that time.

    Nice work YOU trying to steer the argument off course. Let’s return, would you think a statue of an SS officer was a nice monument in Berlin? My opinion is that eventually Loudoun took down the signs over the public drinking fountains that said white and colored, and maybe it’s time to rethink the statue, and maybe the Republican Party in Loudoun ought to rethink its reliance on people like Grigsby. The way you stand up for him and Delgaudio it’s impossible to have any respect for you or your opinions at all.

  47. Barbara Munsey

    elderberry, I see you intend to continue not only derailment but Godwin–okay, whatever.

    Comprehensive? No, but long history of observation, made much easier by the theatrics of one of the doyennes of perpetual outraged vitimhood in the county.

    The manure comments came on a day when Mrs. brought in a pound of bologna sausage to wave at the podium while reviling the dais, and the (issue-free) remarks included that she really wanted to bring in a load of manure from someone’s barn and dump it in front of them to show what they REALLY were, but had decided against it. Big of her, to choose wasting food over a public health nuisance for that day’s onanistic acting-out.

    Coach Grigsby? Seriously? I was there and spoke that day, as did Mrs. Kelly, who did her “you are the Taliban” show on that occasion. I saw both Kelly and Grigsby’s performances, and quite frankly they were both emblematic of the ugliness brought to bear in the public process by the oligarchs of “real” Loudoun–those handful of the perpetually outraged who feel the world is theirs alone.

    Yes, the Kellys have a nice shop. Good. I would never shop there, or recommend it simply because of the years of ugliness displayed by the proprietress, just as there are other businesses I choose not to patronize because of actions personally witnessed that lead me not to wish to give them money.

    SS statue? Really? I guess if you think the local government is the Taliban when it doesn’t show up to personally get their marching orders from you, then it makes sense. Have a nice day, if that’s possible for you here in the dregs of the kyriarchy.

  48. Epluribusunum

    Of course Godwin’s Law is only invoked when the comparison is inappropriate. In this case we are discussing American slavery and the slave trade, a genocide orders of magnitude greater than the Holocaust in terms of its size.

    Since Barbara openly defends the likes of Delgaudio, it’s unsurprising that she would also defend Confederate apologists.

  49. John Flannery

    Wow, Barbara, just saw your latest screed. To characterize it would be to diminish the full force of the irrational rant.

    But your method is clear, deny, never answer, talk about something else and attack whomever is saying what you fail to answer.

    Not great sophistry but it is a species of advocacy that fills pages but without much substance. And that is your rant to the t.

    But I prefer to advert to its content so others can judge for themselves how far off the map of common sense and understandable argument you’ve traveled … breath-taking…

    “elderberry, I see you intend to continue not only derailment but Godwin–okay, whatever.

    Comprehensive? No, but long history of observation, made much easier by the theatrics of one of the doyennes of perpetual outraged vitimhood in the county.

    The manure comments came on a day when Mrs. brought in a pound of bologna sausage to wave at the podium while reviling the dais, and the (issue-free) remarks included that she really wanted to bring in a load of manure from someone’s barn and dump it in front of them to show what they REALLY were, but had decided against it. Big of her, to choose wasting food over a public health nuisance for that day’s onanistic acting-out.

    Coach Grigsby? Seriously? I was there and spoke that day, as did Mrs. Kelly, who did her “you are the Taliban” show on that occasion. I saw both Kelly and Grigsby’s performances, and quite frankly they were both emblematic of the ugliness brought to bear in the public process by the oligarchs of “real” Loudoun–those handful of the perpetually outraged who feel the world is theirs alone.

    Yes, the Kellys have a nice shop. Good. I would never shop there, or recommend it simply because of the years of ugliness displayed by the proprietress, just as there are other businesses I choose not to patronize because of actions personally witnessed that lead me not to wish to give them money.

    SS statue? Really? I guess if you think the local government is the Taliban when it doesn’t show up to personally get their marching orders from you, then it makes sense. Have a nice day, if that’s possible for you here in the dregs of the kyriarchy.”

    kyriarchy?

  50. Elder Berry

    Barbara Munsey still has no answer as to why she would have gotten into the tax status of an opposition speaker who was a private citizen, or why any private citizen deserves to be targeted and examined because of their political speech. (Isn’t this exactly what her Republican friends are accusing the IRS of doing?)

    She has no real answer as to why she herself consistently and loudly defends bigots in government, convicted defamers, and now statues to those who fought to keep people enslaved.

    She has no answer as to why we should not free our Loudoun County courthouse from a symbol that offends and degrades so many people.

    But she has a lot of vindictive rhetoric to hide that she has no answers. Typical modern “conservative Republican”.

  51. Barbara Munsey

    well guys, sorry to see (not) that relentlessly pimping the blog in the comments section of various news (and non-news) articles has produced…nothing.

    John, as someone who obviously holds themselves in great regard as a torchbearer for the grand Hibernian tradition of florid oratory, look it up. (kyriarchy) The short answer is that it is a contrived hyperfeminist term that explains why everything is awful and always will be unless otherwise designated by someone such as one of the proprietors of this site and their approved amen corner, with the standard progressive explanation of “Because shut up.”

    I mentioned Delgaudio in connection with this statue when, exactly? Oh, right, everything has to include a Delgaudio reference “because shut up”. Situation normal.

    The courthouse is now being held hostage? Okay, so maybe the next blog pimp will link the weaponized fetus story? That would make equal logical sense–maybe it could tie in a talking point on the R ticket. Ready!

    For people who supposedly embody all that is inclusive, tolerant, and anti-”other”izing, you all are among the best examples of angry projection available at the local level, made even better by being middle-aged caucasians (using your unearned privilege to project in an attempt to assuage your–also unearned, except by your behavior–”guilt”).

    Seriously John–look up “kyriarchy”, and then share with EPU and PD. They will love it and overuse it even more than the beaten-to-death “postmodern”.

    Unless of course it is now tainted by a _____________________________(insert pejorative talking point list here) using it first–but no doubt incorrectly, as I have a totally imperpecft understanding of complex language because I am _______________________ (repeat pejorative talking point list here).

    Have as nice a day as you all can.

  52. John Flannery

    I know what kyriarchy means. I don’t know what you mean. Biblical patriarchy prompted third wave feminism called kyriarchy by one obtuse writer’s lights. So are you asserting your feminism and, if so, is it that the badges of slavery of a class, gender, female, that suffers discrimination by dominating forces? And, if so, why do you blithely disregard persons of color who more clearly suffer the badges of slavery, qua the 13th amendment, by being confronted with a confederate soldier statue that is the embodiment of lawless disregard and slavery? Or is it not you that suffers, thus the indifference? And do try to write in complete sentences Barbara, you are approaching invisibility in your advocacy – as no can understand what your muffled expressions seek to convey.

  53. Barbara Munsey

    You are too funny John! Assert my feminism? By mocking the nearly-invisible muffled expression that is the concept of kyriarchy?

    I don’t suffer as much as you’d apparently like me to do, and not nearly as much as you guys do here.

    As long as you’re happy being miserable and angry, that’s the main thing.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0wZF2PuzIw

    Go to 3:13 in this classic cartoon for a look in the mirror. (you may remember this from your youth–you’re not a lot older than I am)

  54. John Flannery

    I am neither miserable, nor angry, but do object to freedom unencumbered by notions of equality and fair play. Kyriarchy is an objection to unequal treatment. It is in its origination, by a writer, who intended it as such, a feministic protest. That’s why it’s interesting and significant. Presumably you invoked this coined phrase,kyriarchy, because you are treated unequally. fine, i accept that. i believe it is true that women are not treated equally. I’m saying you should therefore consider some support for others who are treated unequally. as best i can divine from your writings, you don’t see it that way. but your writings are somewhat to very opaque as to what you really mean.

  55. Barbara Munsey

    If you are neither miserable nor angry, you give a very good impression of the opposite in your writings.

    I’m not complaining of unfair treatment (and would consider it foolish to do so here in the echo chamber of talking points–merely occasionally pointing out the double standards and hypocrisy of the resident preachers is fine for me, but I don’t really expect results). Everyone is treated unequally on occasion John, by a wide variety of people in a wide variety of situations. Life isn’t fair, (really) and cannot be legislated to be so. We are guaranteed equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome, and to attempt to create it often ends in treating some unfairly in order to be “fair” to some others.

    And that’s the problem with the onanistic contrivance of kyriarchy–it is subjective all purpose perennial victimhood with–lo and behold!–the self-proclaimed professional victims defining victimhood and its benefits, as well as the punishment for the perennial villains.

    You probably shouldn’t presume, but as I said many many comments ago between your various intemperate projectional attack rants, it does tend to illustrate how your bill in the BOE suit ran up near $100K before the BoS put their foot down.

  56. John Flannery

    Barbara, we are talking about “equality of opportunity.” It doesn’t exist for women. it doesn’t exist for persons of color. So we don’t need to discuss why the outcomes differ since the threshold conditions, the opportunities, are don’t exist or are set to “unequal.” As for the proposition that we can’t legislate equality, we purported to do just that in our declaration of independence and in our constitution and in the bill of rights, and in the amendments to the bill of rights and by statutes. As a result, we can stop a variety of discriminating conduct that denies equal opportunity in jobs, education, public eateries, and much more. True, there are those who compromise these remedies but we are in a better place than we were when those were in the ascendancy who thought black, jews and catholics should be lynched or burned. They still pull their sheets on. The discrimination continues. But the laws have ameliorated the worst effects. The effort to reduce the discrimination in place today continues. It doesn’t surprise me that you are unconcerned about discrimination. And presumably I’m not writing to persuade you but those who spend a moment thinking what you have to say is worth their time – when it’s not.

  57. Barbara Munsey

    John, your comments re things “not existing” are preposterous.

    If they were remotely true, women and people of color would not vote, own property, own and run businesses, run for office, etc

    (Nice closure with another example of “because shut up, that’s why”, btw. –goes a long way to prove how not-angry you are, you old white guy you! :D )

  58. John Flannery

    People of color and women face discrimination in hiring, in financing, in living, in politics and even in voting.

  59. Elder Berry

    “cannot do X at all” is not at all the same argument as “not treated equally or face discrimination in X”. Your reply of the first does not repudiate Flannery’s statement of the second.

    But you know that Barbara Munsey, you just can’t help trying to deny, distract and distort. You can’t ever just have a straight and honest debate. Anyone who actually knows logic and debate finds your tactics very obvious and easy to see. If you did debate straight, you’d lose. Therefore the tricks and dodges are your constant refuge.

    Distortions, lies, avoidance. Stupid high school debate tricks. No wonder young people think the real leaders of the Republican Party are Limbaugh and O’Reilly, who so visibly specialize in that stuff.

  60. Barbara Munsey

    “Barbara, we are talking about “equality of opportunity.” It doesn’t exist for women. it doesn’t exist for persons of color.”

    Perhaps you missed that part in John (Flannery’s) comment of 16:10 on the 30th?

    The all inclusive “doesn’t exist”?

    Preposterous.

    Speaking of highschool, nice segue into the standard prog of “Limbaugh!” How….logical of you! rotfl

    (Maybe you should click on that classic cartoon–if you’re 84 instead of 8 you surely remember it)

  61. Elder Berry

    To you, lack of equality of opportunity in voting means no women can vote? Lack of equal opportunity in business means to you that women can’t participate in business at all?

    You’re not an idiot Barbara so you must just be deliberately dense. You use the same kind of inept and disingenuous argument ad absurdem that the Fox News fools think will continue to work because they got way with it for so long.

    Alert: there might be a few women CEOs even if women lack equal opportunity in business. Some people of color may vote even if Republicans are trying their best to prevent equal voting rights for people of color.

    And I’d like to ignore that age-ist comment from you, but it is all of a bigoted and nasty piece with the racism issue that you and others here wanted to try to downplay about the Confederate statue, after all.

    Returning to that subject, something happened in Fauquier County the other day that made an impact with me. The Confederate statue being discussed in the Fauquier paper that I was reading was a statue in a cemetery, on Confederate graves. That is a very different matter than the statue in Loudoun on the county courthouse lawn. I can’t speak for John Flannery but I imagine he might agree.

  62. Barbara Munsey

    ah, from Limbaugh to Fox–wow, no scripted talking points there!

    Read.

    If something “doesn’t exist”, John (Flannery’s) words, then according to him yes, it’s and absolute.

    It is not.

    because the opportunity is there, and many do succeed far in advance of some others, no matter their color or sex.

    even without Harrison Bergeron style attempted anforced equality of outcome.

    Thank you for saying I’m not an idiot, but only a racist, agist, bigoted….

    Rage on, happy prog

  63. Barbara Munsey

    Hogwash.

    Opportunity exists. What does NOT exist is the guarantee that everyone will achieve equal results.

    Results can surely be mandated, equalized, redistributed, subsidized through tax-supported government programs and laws, but it undercuts your occasional posturing on fiscal responsibility to try to legislate good feelings for all.

  64. Elder Berry

    Again: EQUAL opportunity. A level playing field.

    I have said nothing about equal results. That’s your straw man.

    But if you can look at your South Riding elementary school and then go to SE DC or Prince George’s County or Oakland, CA and say that those kids are getting an equal chance at a good education, then you are truly delusional. If you can vote in Loudoun after a 5-10 minute wait and then see people in downtown Detroit or Cleveland waiting 6 to 8 hours in line to vote, and say that that’s an equal opportunity, then you are not on the same planet.

    How supposed Christians have such closed hearts is hard for me to deal with.

    Goodnight.

  65. Barbara Munsey

    elderberry, speaking of straw men (and talking points), who said I am a Christian? I don’t attend any church, and believe an individual’s dealings with God are a private matter between the individual and God. Don’t drag religion into this, particularly as it seems you are only doing so to criticize me for something you have applied to me sans fact or evidence.

    Now, back to our argument on John(Flannery)’s sweeping statement that equality of opportunity “does not exist”, now adopted by you–to the death, apparently: if you did not intimately connect it to a desire for equality of result, then you perhaps could admit that opportunity does exist, even in your extreme examples.

    Stories abound of people who have beaten such odds and more, the key thing being that the individuals who succeeded didn’t sit on their ass and spend more time complaining about fairness than in working to reach their goals.

    (and how funny you are comparing waiting in line to vote! maybe you should contact your fellow Democrats in Detroit etc and give them hell, as opposed to blaming me! well, I understand–it’s got to be someone’s fault, and me being whatever you angrily project on to me, then it MUST be mine. Institutional Dems have run Detroit into the ground–legislating Utopia there has worked out just dandy)

  66. Elder Berry

    The outlier does not describe the curve. You surely know that. Saying one person has moved on from poverty (or a bad education or discriminatory incarceration rates or sexual discrimination) does not mean that poverty (or any of the other conditions) does not cripple opportunity.

    But now Barbara Munsey you’ve run off to another straw man.

    Goodnight.

  67. Barbara Munsey

    Sorry, John (Flannery), but not in school w/ you, and quite frankly having seen the President get a Nobel two weeks into office simply for existing in his fabulousness (not to mention ManBearPig get one for the hypocritical green scams that will make him our first carbon billionaire if things continue as they are with government crony “capitalism”) the prize is yet another shrine empty on many occasions–devalued through political currency.

    elderberry, I didn’t say that only ONE had succeeded. it is your construct that because EVERYONE doesn’t, then there is no opportunity for ANYONE at all.

    feel better, you two. i know that’s a guiding goal.

  68. Elder Berry

    “the individuals who succeeded didn’t sit on their ass and spend more time complaining about fairness than in working to reach their goals”

    You really have no clue, have you?

    What exactly is your definition of “succeeded”? Plenty of people sit on their ass not one minute of the day, and complain not at all, and yet still have little or nothing to show for it. The truth in this country, statistically verified by numbers I’m sure the Republicans wish we didn’t collect, is, if you start rich you’ll probably stay rich, and if you start poor you’ll probably stay poor. If you’re rich your children have a better chance of doing well, and if you’re poor your children start with a handicap. That’s why every program to improve the chances of poor children, from food stamps to Head Start, gets attacked by Republicans.

    Besides, the irony of a Republican worrying about crony capitalism is almost too much to bear. Republicans invented and perfected that brand. I give you that both parties practice it now, but Dems are not even a close second in the sweepstakes.

  69. Barbara Munsey

    Again, the fact that ALL do not succeed does not make the blanket statement “opportunity does not exist” true, and fussing about it does nothing to help anyone succeed.

    As for government funded crony capitalism, and a burgeoning host of crimes and scandals, the bloom is really off the rose with the Obama admin. Any clues there?

    :D

  70. John Flannery

    Fussing about equal opportunity. That’s what you said Barbara. Close to that reported remark by Marie Antionette – when speaking to the hungry poor in france – let them eat cake (brioche). Easy to say for someone who has the opportunity to call it fussing for another who does not. I think you are in a small class of people who can’t see anything they don’t already believe. You believe it so no facts can change your mind. You may fairly ask why anyone “argues” with you. It’s to use your bad thinking as example for others to consider so they can understand what you refuse to admit or are unable to grasp. Thus your bad arguments are our means to persuade others that you are unworthy to lead or to persuade them what you have to say is unpersuasive because you dodge the question and make unsupportable statements in fact and at law. Good show, Barbara.

  71. Barbara Munsey

    Actually John, when told the poor were rioting because they had no bread, she said “why do they not eat cake then?” She really was that sheltered from reality–much as you and elderberry seem to be.

    Please reread, counselor: “the fact that ALL do not succeed does not make the blanket statement “opportunity does not exist” true, and fussing about it does nothing to help anyone succeed” is not the same as “Fussing about equal opportunity. That’s what you said Barbara.”

    And once again: the fact that not everyone succeeds does not mean that “opportunity does NOT EXIST”, which is yes, exactly what YOU said.

    (and also again: seeing how your bills crank up so high! lolol)

  72. Elder Berry

    Barbara that story about MA is pretty certain to be misattributed or flatly untrue.

    And just like Darryl Issa you love to have half quotes. Issa cherry picks to avoid the fact that the whole IRS flap seems to be a legitimate efficiency program that got a bit off the track but was NEVER directed from DC. Rep. Cummings going to fix that, committee-wise, he’s calling Issa on it. Going to see those transcripts and get the truth out eventually. Seems like when the spotlight is on the truth Isaa is nowhere to be seen.

    As for you: The term Flannery used was “EQUAL opportunity”. Most people have heard that phrase before and understand that the two words together have a meaning. That the opportunity for all should be EQUAL. You just completely missed the equal part it is all. You got all twisted up in obfuscation and missed that equal part, Now how could that have happened.

  73. Hillsboro

    And just like Darryl Issa you love to have half quotes. Issa cherry picks to avoid the fact that the whole IRS flap seems to be a legitimate efficiency program that got a bit off the track but was NEVER directed from DC. Rep. Cummings going to fix that, committee-wise, he’s calling Issa on it. Going to see those transcripts and get the truth out eventually. Seems like when the spotlight is on the truth Isaa is nowhere to be seen.

    Kind of makes you wonder why the IRS has apparently fired Holly Paz. She DID direct the folks in Cincinatti and she DID so from DC.

    Just a bit off track, huh? Keep on hitting that peace pipe my friend.

Comments are closed.